Submitted: Tue, Jul
04, 2000 12:36 am
Subject:
Hello Peniel;
I have been reading your book and find it interesting.
On pages 142 and 143 you say: "He could be very happy to be able to
experience the pain that he does in order to atone for other's sins and to gain
merit
for his eternal palace in heaven."
It was my impression that the Bible teaches that only Jesus can atone for the
sins of men. Can I indeed atone for my sins and the sins of others?
Regards,
Tom
Submitted: Thu, Apr
01, 2004 1:16 pm
Subject: RE: Book: Oh My God!....
Tom,
Wonderful to hear from you!
Forgive me for being so verbose, but when
someone like you allows me to speak about Jesus, love, life, relationships, or
something similar that Jesus has instructed me about in order to help
others... well, my heart fills with such joy that the words often
just pour out of me and seems to never end. Sometimes I have to stop myself and
say, "Hey, jerk - he just asked a simple question and you are replying
with a three page soap-box dissertation on life and love!" In addition and
explanation, when explaining matters of the Spirit, a million words almost will
not suffice, a thousand only clouds the issue, and a few merely confuses the
truth seeker. I wish we could discuss this face to face, as it would require so
far fewer words, but alas, this is what we must work with. I use many words in
an attempt to both be clear in my meaning, and to explain how it is that I have
come to accept these truth.
I will reply on your email below (your text in red, mine in
black and blue for emphasis):
I have been reading your book and find it interesting.
On pages 142 and 143 you say: "He could be very happy to be able to
experience the pain that he does in order to atone for other's sins and to gain
merit for his eternal palace in heaven." It was my impression that the
Bible teaches that only Jesus can atone for the sins of men. Can I indeed atone
for my sins and the sins of others?
Boy, I could write a whole book on this intriguing paradox that you have proposed here, and Jesus has taught me much about it. Let me start by giving you the short and simple answer, and then, if you need or are interested, you can read on as I attempt to expand on and explain my understanding of this perplexing aspect of theology.
In brief, you are absolutely
right, ONLY the CHRIST can fully 'atone' for the sins of man, any individual
man, or all men as a group. And, this Jesus indeed did with His incarnation,
life here on earth, and especially in His agonizing and unjust crucifixion and
death. He laid down His life for us, so that we might live! This is the essence
and core of 'atonement'. And, if a man today has had his sins atoned for, then
they are all fully atoned for. This, Christ ONLY can and did do, once, for
all. The answer therefore to your second
question, Can I indeed atone for my sins
and the sins of others? would have to be, no. (This presupposes
that you are implying that you, and you alone, are involved in this supposed
'atonement'.)
Now that the 'short version' is done.
Even though Christ both was and is man's atonement, we can 'play a part' in the passion of Christ. We can 'offer' our own personal pain, suffering, injuries, etc. to Jesus to be used 'in conjunction' with His own sacrifice. This is what I was referring to on pages 142 and 143. I have an offertory prayer I use which I believe is very useful in this regards. In short, "I offer Thee my prayers, my works, my joys, my happiness, my sorrows and sufferings, loneliness and longings, my love, in fact, all things of this day and the rest of my life. I offer them for my sins, the sins of others, and all things that offend You; in union with Christ's death and resurrection. I offer You all things, for all good, all ways - and always!"
Actually, in my
honest opinion, very few people have a clear understanding of the word
'atonement' as it is used throughout the old and new testament. It is one of
the only English origin words used in theology and has a convoluted history. It
literally means: AT-ONE-Ment (to take two things and make them AS one; a literal "joining" more
akin to amalgamation than suspension or mixture.)
The verb "atone", from the adverbial phrase
"at one" (M.E. at oon), at first meant to reconcile, or make "at
one"; from this it came to denote the action by which such reconciliation
was effected, e. g. satisfaction for all offense or an injury. Hence, in
Christian theology, the Atonement is the Satisfaction of Christ, whereby the
Father and the world are reconciled or made to be at one. (II Cor., v, 19).
I suppose you already know that prior to Jesus' coming, the Jews were instructed in the ritual of 'atonement' in which the high-priest offered a sacrifice to God for the atonement of the Jewish peoples sins, and God accepted this sacrifice, at that time, in atonement for their sins. If you had asked, can one man do anything that will atone for or assist in atoning for either his own or some other(s) person's sins? Then, in that case I would have answered, absolutely!
In history, before Christ, Yom Kipper was the way God instructed the Chosen People to 'atone' for their sins. This ritual, of course, involved two goats, a sacrifice, the Holy of Holies, the Arc of the Covenant, sprinkling of blood, etc. and was clearly laid out as to how, and when it was done. This sacrifice 'atoned' for the sins of all of the Jews for the entire year. This was as God said, and this is how the Jews believed. However, I believe that it only 'presupposes' and also 'pre-atones' for the only TRUE atonement - Christ.
However, just as your question proposes a paradox, so does Yom Kipper. How can the blood of a goat 'atone' (fully and completely, on its own, any by itself) for any man's sins, much less the entire nation of Israel for a full year? In Truth, it can't. (Just as my 'short answer to your question was, 'no'.) It is ONLY because God foreknew and presupposed the True Sacrifice that Jesus made that He applied the Jewish sacrifice - 'in conjunction' with the eventual sacrifice that Christ would make, and THIS was a sacrifice worthy of forgiveness of sins.
God 'allowed' the eventual atonement of Christ to 'effect' the atonement for the Jewish yearly sins, so long as the Yom Kipper was performed. If the Yom Kipper was not done, or was not done properly, then the sins of the people of Israel would NOT have been 'atoned' for that year. (Just as today, although Jesus has fully atoned for my sins, I am still FREE to reject this gift He offers me!)
Now, to the crux of my
dissertation regarding atonement:
Just as God allowed the Jewish ritual of Yom Kipper to "ACT IN CONJUNCTION WITH" the eventual sacrifice of Jesus, so to does He allow us the wonderful and fulfilling opportunity to "SHARE IN THE REDEMPTIVE WORK OF CHRIST", by offering our own personal pain and suffering to God to be used :in conjunction with: Jesus sacrifice for the atonement of both my own personal offenses against my loving Father, and other's offenses also.
Yeah, I know, Jesus sacrifice was sufficient and all that was required. Certainly. BUT, the question I pose is not, was Jesus' sacrifice enough? But rather, "Can I somehow 'join' in Christ's redemptive work, in any way?"
If you suppose that no one save the Christ alone is 'allowed' to participate in any way in atoning for sins, well, in the letter of the law, you are correct: for ONLY a sinless man could pay the price for sin. No sinful person could 'pay in full or part' that debt. And, how much less could the blood of some goat help? - YET, this is exactly what God taught and instructed His chosen people to do, and exactly for that purpose - the atonement for their sins.
If He has allowed them, BEFORE Jesus' personal sacrifice in time, to either TRUELY atone for, or more likely, actually only 'assist' in atoning by offering in conjunction with the eventual and ultimate sacrifice; then how much moreso is it appropriate for US, after Christ, fully aware of what He did for us, to do 'whatever we can and are allowed' to join in with Christ in His redemptive work.
This, my brother, is our co-redemptive work that I was referring to.
Now, if you are REAL BORED and have nothing else to do, let
me continue and also provide further references for your amusement / pleasure /
instruction. Otherwise, you can stop here.
Yours in Christ,
--Peniel G.G.G.
Submitted: Tue, Jul
04, 2000 4:34 am
Subject:
Dear Peniel;
Thank you for your quick and detailed response! I find what
you say to be most interesting and convincing. I would like to know the titles
of your other books and how may they be obtained. I would also like to know
your seminar schedule and cost.
In the book on page 164 you say: "Let's say that I have a dearly held
false belief that God cannot sin or lie or do anything wrong." Do you
really mean to say: "Let's say that I have a dearly held false belief that
God can sin or lie or do anything wrong."?
I appreciate your message and what you are doing. I did a Thesaurus study on
the word "holy" and got some surprising results. What would you have
to say about God's attribute of "holiness"?
Best Regards,
Tom
Submitted: Thu, Apr
01, 2004 4:37 pm
Subject: RE: Seminars, books, God's
Holiness
Tom,
Again, thank you for your kind words. They are a true blessing to me.
In my usual wordiness, I will probably respond to you question regarding
"the holiness of God" and this response will likely become a chapter
in a later book. But, I did not want to delay the entire response for that, so
I shall comment on your current email (verbosely, as usual) and then 'perhaps'
detail out my thought on the 'redundant' and 'self-evident' meaning of the
'holiness' of 'God' later.
Thank you for your quick and detailed response! I find
what you say to be most interesting and convincing.
I accept this statement at face value, with the
reservation that all that I have said and know that is of value is both from
and of God. I assume you understand that both what He has taught me in the past
(which I merely regurgitate) and that which He does through me currently... is
all for God's Greater Glory (G.G.G.) and has nothing to do with me, a
common and sinful man.
I, like you, have always found Jesus to be very
convincing, not asking me to just accept what He says because of who He
is, but rather clearly giving proper evidence and supporting testimony for His
proposition. I suspected from your emails that you were already a student
of both the bible and Christian Theology, so I tailored my response to you
in that direction. There are times when I respond to people in
either spoken or written word where I later see that He has put the words
into my mind and heart, and again, I have merely been the mouth through which
He spoke (hey, if He can speak through a jackass, He can certainly use me...)
I would like to know the titles of your other
books and how may they be obtained. I would also like to know your seminar
schedule and cost.
I have to date written around 20 'full' books, and
approximately and additional 10 books worth of what I would term: short
treaties, seminars, discussions, workshops, etc. Unfortunately, none of the
books excepting OMGAYTTM has at this time been published (in God's good time.)
Only one other book has been actually entered into electronic format, titled
'The Box', which is a novel dealing with some events of my earlier life (with a
spiritual spin on it, naturally.) If you would be interested in reading that, I
would be happy to send you an electronic (PDF) copy for your enjoyment.
The 'other' works are all all hand-written (as much of it was written before we
had personal computers) and only as time and demand requires and permits do I
transfer some of it to the computer.
A novitiate (whom shall remain nameless here for his benefit) has recently
been so kind as to offer his services and has been 'scanning' in some of my
handwritten works into his scanner, so that we will at least have an
'electronic picture' of the plethora of writings that I have. Alas, he has only done one book (of about 30) to date,
and those images are substantially larger as they are Tiff images. I would be
quite happy to make ALL of them available to you, if you are interested,
although you will have to learn to decipher my
scrawling handwriting if you wish to read them at this stage.
Most everything I have written was all
originally written as 'teaching aids' for me, outlines, etc that I used in
teaching the various seminars and discussion groups that I held over the last
25 years. The specific books came later, but again, handwritten.
I will at least put together for you (and
others, I am sure) a LIST OF TITLES (with the novitiate's
assistance) and I will send them to you in a future email. If you believe, from
the title, that one of them is interesting to you, perhaps we can motivate the
novitiate to scan that one in next (or maybe I will scan it in myself for you.)
As far as the Seminars (and Workshops) that I hold, and their schedule: they
are now and always will be free of charge (as a matter of a fact, I always
supply the food and materials required personally). The reason for this should
be self evident: what I was freely given, I am compelled to give freely to
others. All that is asked is your time, an open mind, and hopefully a
willing and participatory spirit (we like people to participate in the workshop
or seminar, not merely 'attend'.)
As of now, with only a few persons in 'casual training' and only one official
'novitiate' under 'serious training', all of the seminars and workshops are
being conducted with one-on-one sessions with the novitiate. They happen
typically once a week, in the evening, and last about 4 hours each session.
Some are structured on a particular subject, but most of the time they run
free-lance (as it is a one-on-one) and we discuss whatever is desired or
pertinent then. Sometimes we do two a week, like we just did this week. I also
typically do them at the novitiate's house and at a time and date convenient
for him, but, I am always available to anyone interested (it is merely a
question of getting together, as all of them require a personal presence to
do.)
Anyone whom could join with us is welcome, but, as we are in central Oklahoma
this might prove a daunting task.
I will also get you a list of the various
seminars and workshops so that you can decide if any of them are
interesting to you. If so, again, perhaps we can scan the written parts in for
you, or even use it as a possible email discussion point. (As you have probably
surmised, I am quite happy and willing to write voluminous emails for the
entertainment and possible benefit of others.) I strongly suspect that the
reason Dad is having me do this is for source material for further works. I
have no doubts that if I just compiled all of the 'discussion' emails I have
had with a half-dozen people over the last few months, it would make a very
interesting albeit convoluted treatise on Truth and general spirituality.
In the book on page 164 you say: "Let's say that I have a dearly held
false belief that God cannot sin or lie or do anything wrong." Do you
really mean to say: "Let's say that I have a dearly held false belief that
God can sin or lie or do anything wrong."?
Boy, I can't seem to say anything without a
tirade of triviality connected to it... but, you asked for it, so here goes!
My statement in the book was this: "Let's say that I have a dearly held false belief
that God cannot sin or lie or do anything wrong."
Let me restate that single sentence here in
multiple statements so that you will understand what I intended by it. First,
let me clarify that the person I am referring to as 'God' here is what most
people would call 'The Creator'. You will probably want for me to clarify or
explain some or all of these if you do not agree or see the truth of them yet.
I propose that these are all true statements:
1.) God can sin.
2.) God can lie.
3.) God can do something that is wrong.
4.) God can do anything.
5.) God is not limited in His actions, with
the single exception that He cannot change His nature nor cease His existence.
6.) There is no thing (nothing) that man can
do that God cannot do.
7.) There is no thing (nothing) that angels or
demons or any existent entities can do that God cannot do.
8.) There are Things that are
impossible to God.
9.) God generally has a good time, enjoys
Himself and those around Him, cares about us personally and individually, and
of course holds the entire universe and all things in existence from moment to
moment for our benefit and pleasure.
10.) Nothing is impossible to God.
11.) God is infinite, complete, self-sufficient, self-sustaining, holy,
loving, all-encompassing, omniscient, omni-present, whole, ureducable,
indivisible, unlimited, all-powerful, all-mighty, infinitely great and good,
and has within His personal nature the very reason and power OF and FOR both
His own existence and existence itself.
12.) What IS impossible to God, is Nothing
(here capitalized and underlined to point out that it has special meaning.)
Now, let me propose a spiritual sticky-wicket: "Can God make a weight
so heavy that He cannot lift it?" And, for your entertainment (and
possible benefit) let me now answer that question and list another series.
These are also all true, I propose:
1.) God can NOT make a weight so heavy that He
can't lift it.
2.) God can NOT take a vacation.
3.) God can NOT commit suicide.
4.) God can NOT clear His mind and think about
absolutely nothing.
5.) God can NOT make a tree that is not a
tree.
6.) God can NOT beat Himself up.
7.) God can NOT make a blue crayon that is not
a blue crayon.
8.) God can NOT help but be as He is.
9.) God can NOT change the way He is or the
job (work) He does.
10.) God can NOT quit His job.
11.) God can NOT change His job.
12.) God can NOT be fired or fire Himself from His job.
I suspect that you will have further questions, I hope, regarding he
above lists. Ask and I will expand, define, explain, exemplify.
I appreciate your message and what you are doing. I did a Thesaurus study on
the word "holy" and got some surprising results. What would you have
to say about God's attribute of "holiness"?
Jesus, if he gets me started on this one, you
will have to physically restrain me! As I said, I will probably do an
entire treatise on this one, as it is an important question and I have much
regarding it that has never been written down yet. I will hold this till later,
perhaps.
A short version:
Proper current definition of "Holy and holy":
In general, with the assumption that there is but One True
God whom is the Only Divine power; then that which is HOLY is that which
is set aside or apart for God and / or for His purposes. With this as the
'root' definition, God (the Creator, the One and Only True God) by definition
must needs be 'Holy'. And, in actuality, He and He alone is and can be 'Holy'.
The best that can be done with whatever is 'not God' (i.e. us, angels,
materials, things, etc.) is to 'set them aside for Him and His use' and in this
'petition God to make them holy'.
It is actually a self-proclaiming title, to say, Holy God, when referring to
the Creator, for it is in the very nature and definition of Him that He is
Holy. Therefore, the 'HOLY' which refers to that aspect of God's nature is
properly written "Holy" (with a capital H) as opposed to that which
is 'set aside for Him' and is therefore merely holy (with a lowercase h.)
Now that that is explained: God, only, is Holy. God allows us to set aside
'stuff', 'people', 'persons', angels, concepts, ideas, ideals, and a variety of
'others' and at God's acceptance of these
'set-aside' things, they become holy.
There are many gods, and there is Only one God. Only the One God is Holy, and
no other gods are holy or Holy. The One God is wholly Holy, but He is not holy.
You asked 'specifically' about the nature of God's Holiness
(I capitalized), and if you look at the
'actual' definitions (proper use of) Holy, then we can make some interesting
statements as follows:
1a.) God 'belongs to' God.
1b.) God 'derived from' God.
1c.) God 'is associated with' God.
1d.) God is the Divine Power.
1e.) God is sacred.
2a.) God is 'regarded with' worship and veneration.
2b.) God is 'worthy of' worship and veneration.
2c.) God is revered.
3a.) God 'lives according to a strict or highly moral religious or spiritual
system'.
3b.) God is 'saintly.'
4a.) God is specified for a religious purpose.
4b.) God is set apart for a religious purpose.
5a.) God solemnly undertakes ALL that He does.
6.) God is regarded as deserving special respect or reverence.
Boy, again, I could take each of these and spend
an hour detailing it, but, let it suffice for now just to list them. In
addition, there are 'other' derived and non-primary definitions of the words
'holy' and 'Holy' as follows:
1. health, salvation, happiness, fr. h[=a]l whole, well; akin to OS. h?lag, D. & G. heilig, OHG. heilac, Dan. hellig, Sw. helig, Icel. heilagr. See Whole, hallowed; sacred; reserved from profane or common use;
2. Spiritually whole or sound; of unimpaired innocence and
virtue; free from sinful affections; pure in heart; godly; pious;
irreproachable; guiltless; acceptable to God.
Again, within these tertiary definitions, there is a wealth of food for thought
and further derivations. For example, HOLY was root-oriented from the word
"WHOLE" (and I find that one both fascinating and intriguing.)
Happiness is also referenced, spiritually 'sound' (I love that one.)
Well, more on this perhaps in a separate treatise!
May Jesus cause His face to shine upon you and fill you with all manner of grace and joy.
Peniel G.G.G.
Submitted: Fri, Apr
02, 2004 6:03 am
Subject: OMGAYTTM
My dear Peniel G.G.G,
Wow! Your responses are fantastic! It would never do for us to meet face to face because our conversation would continue unabated for three days. I do not believe that I could withstand such prolonged joy! I know of no Christian (save for one or two) who is willing to discuss God for more than five minutes without exhausting their interest and/or knowledge.
My knowledge is very limited but my interest in God is boundless.
First meat and potatoes; then the dessert.
You mention that your handwritten material is being scanned into image format.
This, it seems to me, would have limited use and ultimately counterproductive.
I should think that converting handwriting into word processing text format
would be most desirable. So long as you are the recognized author (and the
Author behind the author) would it matter who does it? Is there no one locally
interested enough in your work to do this? I offer to help in the process. (I
once typed into a word processor the entire book “Embraced By The Light” by
Betty Eadie. I could have used a scanner and OCR (optical character
recognition) but chose the longer way for better memory retention). Anyway,
perhaps you could send something to convert and I will give it a try.
The dessert.
You challenged me to the core with your first twelve proposals. Let us discuss
them both individually and collectively. But let me begin by saying this; Who
can
understand the triune (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) nature of God? Who can
understand the dual (man/God) nature of Jesus? Who really understands the dual
(wave/particle) nature of light? (Is it a wavicle? What is it when no one
is looking? a wave, a particle, both, neither?). We are walking on deep water
here.
But I digress.
1.) God can sin.
Response: The American Heritage dictionary: sin1 (s¹n) n. 1. A transgression of
a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate. 2. Theology. a.
Deliberate
disobedience to the known will of God. b. A condition of estrangement from God
resulting from such disobedience. 3. Something regarded as being shameful,
deplorable, or utterly wrong.
A.) For God to sin seems logically incompatible with the very definition of the
word as stated in 1 and 2 above.
B.) With regard to definition 3, is not God the highest standard against which
all else is measured?
Is He not the purest, the best, the greatest, the highest, separate and above
all others? How can he sin like man? To sin seems incompatible with his nature.
B.) But yet, .......but yet here is a dilemma. I believe that Jesus was tempted
in the desert and also at many other times (get thee behind me Satan, let this
cup pass from me but not my will but thine be done, know you not that I can
call legions of angels, etc.). I believe that, since he was led into the desert
By the Holy Spirit, that it was a real temptation and not a sham.
It was not just for show. So can we say that the appeal was to the physical
(man) nature of Jesus? Even so, the effect of yielding is the same, whether man
or God (what is the difference if I say to this man take up your bed or your
sins are forgiven). If he had yielded to the temptation we would yet be
looking for a Savior. He could then not have been the Sacrificial Lamb without
spot or blemish.
Can we say that the very real potential to sin was there yet he looked forward
to the high honor that could be his to sit at the right hand of God? Even so for
us, for this is not our home but we look forward to a home not constructed with
hands.
2.) God can lie.
Response: Some Bible verses that seem to say otherwise: Num 23:19 God is
not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:
hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make
it good? , Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie,
promised before the world began;, Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things,
in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation,
who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
In addition, what does God have to gain by deception? I believe that God tells
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. He does not reveal
everything he
knows but that is something else. I think that when he speaks he cannot lie
(but you will remember the occasion when he allowed an angel to lie).
3.)God can do something that is wrong.
Response: Is this a test? I would offer the same response as those I made
to your proposals 1 and 2. I would also offer your own statement number 11 as
further refutation (I agree wholeheartedly with your statement 11). Since God
had no beginning and he never changes (immutable) there is no character flaw or
possibility of change for the worse. I believe God is perfect, his character is
flawless, and he is the best that is or can be.
Some, perhaps, would argue that the Bible is full of God’s murderous deeds (the
flood, famines, diseases, curses, etc.) but God alone is the Lifegiver and he
alone can rightfully take life. This is not wrong. Some could say that Job was
the victim of a cruel bet between God and Satan but this experience was and is
very instructional for both him and us. Was God’s taking of the life of David
and Bathsheba’s son justice from the baby’s point of view? Was taking the lives
of Job’s
children fair to them? But I contend that God is just and fair and moral in all
that he says and does. In my opinion, he is without error and a perfect Father.
Jesus came into the world to do the works of Him that sent him (I love your use
of “I AM” which is an absolutely incredible, outrageous, and
wonderful statement in itself). Jesus did not kill but rather he healed
and restored to life. To know the Son is to know the Father. No one comes to
the Father except through the Son. Such love!
4.) God can do anything.
Response: I agree so long as it is consistent with his nature and purpose. I
find it amazing that God knew how we would be before he created anything or
anyone. Yet he went ahead anyway. I am so grateful! I am and shall be eternally
grateful for the everlasting life he has given me through the sacrifice of his
Son. God has given us free will which, to me, means that God has intentionally
limited Himself (just as Jesus did on earth). I agree that, without God’s
grace, we are all doomed.
I also agree with all of your second set of twelve statements which are
consistent with God’s nature and purpose.
5.) God is not limited in His actions, with the single exception that He cannot
change His nature nor cease His existence.
Response: I agree completely.
6.) There is no thing (nothing) that man can do that God cannot do.
Response: I agree so long as it is consistent with his nature and purpose.
7.) There is no thing (nothing) that angels or demons or any existent entities
can do that God cannot do.
Response: I agree so long as it is consistent with his nature and purpose.
8.) There are Things that are impossible to God.
Response: Yes, God cannot lie; it is impossible for Him to lie. It is also
impossible for God to die, to change, or do anything contrary to his nature or
purpose. Otherwise, I do not know what is meant by Things.
9.) God generally has a good time, enjoys Himself and those around Him, cares
about us personally and individually, and of course holds the entire universe
and all
things in existence from moment to moment for our benefit and pleasure.
Response: I agree completely.
10.) Nothing is impossible to God.
Response: Nothing is impossible to God except that which is inconsistent with
his nature and purpose. He will not violate I AM. Otherwise God is
all-powerful, good, and the ultimate authority. His spoken word has created the
universe and everything in it. Nothing that exists was made with hands or
tools.
11.) God is infinite, complete, self-sufficient, self-sustaining, holy, loving,
all-encompassing, omniscient, omni-present, whole, unreducible, indivisible,
unlimited,
all-powerful, al-mighty, infinitely great and good, and has within His personal
nature the very reason and power OF and FOR both His own existence and
existence itself.
Response: Yes! Yes! Yes! And we could add many others (perhaps without end);
decree, divine, transcendence, eternity, faithfulness, foreknowledge, glory,
grace,
immutability, incarnation, justice, knowledge, mercy, patience, solitariness,
sovereignty, Spirit, transcendent, trinity, wisdom, word, wrath.
12.) What IS impossible to God, is Nothing.
Response: Nothing shall be impossible for God (so long as it is consistent with
His nature and purpose). He has established and IS all parameters. All things
and beings are compared to Him the only TRUE reference. He is the Standard.
Man’s point of view is not God’s point of view. Our understanding and reference
is currently limited. We do not think like God thinks. Our ways are not His
ways.
Wow! You inspire me. But do we disagree? If so, please elaborate.
Yours in Jesus (our mutual Friend),
Tom
Submitted: Fri, Apr
02, 2004 5:23 pm
Subject: Re: OMGAYTTM
Subject: Thanks for the offer to type in the hand-written
books, Tom!
BCC List: KC, DC, JG, Biyn, DM, AP, GT
(FOR EVERYONE WHO GETS THIS CC'd to THEM, check out the FTP link listed below.
I have put some of the handwritten scanned images of parts of some books up
there. I recommend I.T.0056.jpg as a good starting
point, if you are interested! NOTE: I will soon move all of these to the book's
website: http://www.mcwj.com (My Conversations
With Jesus)
My God-send: Tom,
GOD BLESS ME! I have been waiting on someone like your for years!
I am so excited that I can hardly wait for your next email. I suspect that we
are about to embark upon a wondrous and fascinating journey and adventure. I am
not going to do my normal (verbose) line by line reply to this email (yet) as I
just quickly wanted just to tell you of my joy and passion about you and what
you propose.
You are absolutely right in everything below, all that you said, all that you
proposed. In my detailed dissertation I will rectify the 'apparent'
discrepancies between my statements and yours regarding the nature of God.
Also, I bow low before you in humble humility and beg and plead with you, for
the Love of GOD, PLEASE HELP ME! I have so many books filled with (I hope)
such valuable information that could be spread freely and widely and
used to help so many people, yet, there it is on hand-written old and
yellowing paper. YES! I accept your offer. The problem is twofold, and we
will see how to overcome these.
1.) It is almost unacceptable for me to send let the 'actual'
documents, pages, books, material, etc. out of my possession, as I need them
for teaching, and I treasure them like my precious children. (I might be
willing to send you one of my children, but not one of my books! ;)
2.) I know you are willing now, but you may not know how deep the waters are
that you are getting into? I suspect that there are probably about 30 to 50
'volumes' worth of pages (with a volume being a couple of hundred hand-written
pages) that we are talking about.
Here is my test proposal, and if acceptable I will get the wheels of this wagon
turning very quickly. Look here:
ftp://giveme:files@ftp.courtwatch.com/Customer_Files/Uploads/Peniel
user: giveme
password: files
site: ftp.courtwatch.com
directory: Customer_Files\Uploads\Peniel
This is a random sampling of some material out of various of the books, and the
start of the ITS Seminars and workshop series books (some done, some outlines,
some not expanded at all yet.)
1.) See if you are able to download, open and 'read' these scanned page images.
START WITH I.T.0056.jpg and work forward from there, to
start.
2.) If so, see if you can decipher my handwriting (hey, even if you just got
close to the words, I will be greatly indebted and of course go over the
returned 'electronic' versions with a fine toothed comb to correct, expand, and
clarify everything you get typed in.)
3.) See if there are parts of what is up there now (about a hundred scanned
pages) that is 'more interesting' or appealing to you to start with, and we
will do those FIRST. (i.e. email me and say, BOY, I would sure like to read the
workshop on L.O.V.E (Love's Object - Various Expressions) and if it is not
already scanned and up at the site, I will have my novitiate scan that next and
get it available to you as soon as possible.)
4.) If you find that you are unwilling to transcribe some or all of the
material in a given page, section, chapter, book, etc. for either personal
reasons, religious reasons, or ANY reasons, just say so and we will have
someone else tasked for that. (I would never assist someone in a work if I felt
that what was being proposed in the writings was false, misleading, unloving,
or harmful to me, my fellow lover's of God, or Dad Himself. I understand that
you have this same rite, and I would never question your decision to not assist
in something that you may find offensive, untrue, misguiding, etc.)
Email me with your comments, ideas, etc regarding this proposal, for now.
NOTE: I will soon move all of these to the book's website: http://www.mcwj.com (My Conversations
With Jesus)
Now, more. You said: Wow! Your responses are fantastic!
It would never do for us to meet face to face because our conversation would
continue unabated for three days. I do not believe that I could withstand such
prolonged joy! I know of no Christian (save for one or two) who is
willing to discuss God for more than five minutes without exhausting their
interest and/or knowledge.
I know where you are coming from, exactly! IMAGINE how I felt when I finally
fully accepted that it REALLY WAS JESUS, HIMSELF speaking to me, many years
ago. Like you, I warned Him about my hunger for Him and knowledge about Him,
and desire to know Him, and thirst to get in and ask all of those questions. He
lovingly and willingly accepted it all. In my stumbling, bumbling, passionate
mind, I REELED! Of course, I started out with my tattered and wrinkled list of
20 questions from my billfold, "What is Love?" (See, how did this
book get written on its web page: www.mcwj.com.)
I feel that you are mistaken, however, three days of unabated discussion is not
nearly enough to satiate the appetite for Truth, when the well of Truth is
finally found. I suspect that if you and I did meet face to face, we would
probably have to move in together and have pizza and clothes brought to us ever
once in a while, for what Jesus taught me over the first 13 years will take a
while to regurgitate. And then, we should discuss all of it, dissect it,
extrapolate more from it, etc. What is in OMGAYTTM is the first 20
conversations which took place over the first few days that He and I spoke. (I
am VORACIOUS for the Truth.) When I was finally allowed to sit down and write
it all down, a few years later, it only took 2 weeks to hand-write what is now
the book OMGAYTTM. Since this entire book represents only a couple of days
worth our earliest (and best) discussions, IMAGINE what transpired for 13
years! GOD how I wish I had all of it written down, but, that would certainly
fill at least several hundred books of just the raw conversations, before the
badly-wanted commentary and expansion.
So, I suspect that we would have to spend at least a half a life, maybe more.
Fortunately, most get satisfied when they have enough to get them over the hill
they are currently facing, and get on with their journey. If you be a true
seeker, and your bowl is large enough, I have a virtual cornucopia of meat and
potatoes for you, and then, for dessert, a plethora and a bucket more full of
fruits and vegetables, cakes and ice cream, ambrosia and honey.
I know that the main reason He gave and taught me so much was my own voracious
appetite to love Him more dearly, see Him more clearly, and follow Him more
dearly; BUT, I have always hoped that this legacy He has given me might one day
be passed on to another, or others. This is why I wrote the first book, and all
of the writings I did. God-willing, in time, more of the important and useful
information may be written down to be sent out and passed on. This, for years
past, has been my prayer and my dream. I think of all the beautiful wisdom
Jesus has so patiently imparted to me, and I see my approaching mortality, and
I weep for the loss to man this will mean!
*** Perhaps you, my dear brother in Christ, will be a part of that (adding of
course your own insightful parts to it.)
The last few years have seen His plans for me beginning to unfurl (after 20
years of my impatiently waiting on God.) He has brought the FIRST and
most useful book (OMGAYTTM) off of my dusty shelf and had it published. He has
made it freely available in PDF format to any whom can find it. He has brought
(through the book) my first apprentice into his novitiate. He has touched MANY
people in the last few months with this book, and introduced them to me. This
He has done because He loves me, and He knows of my desire to assist my fellow
pilgrims here on earth with the tools and teachings He has heaped upon me.
Now, I am almost brought to tears in finding that He may have sent another to
assist in this work, willing to type in from my scrawl some of what has been
put down. At least for a time.
My knowledge is very limited but my interest in God is
boundless.
Very interesting! It now seems that in my mind
my knowledge is 'almost' limitless (GGG) and is only exceeded by my
appreciation and continued interest. I offer to you all that you can
stand, as time permits.
May Jesus come personally to you and reveal His face (as He did to me)
so that He devastate your soul with the same Love that you slay mine with! THEN
you will truly thirst for more!
Peniel G.G.G.
Submitted: Fri, Apr
02, 2004 10:34 pm
Subject: Peniel's reply to Tom - statements
about the Nature of God
Subject: Peniel's reply to Tom -
statements about the Nature of God
BCC List: KC, DC, JG, Biyn, DM, AP, GT, TW
(NOTE: To
everyone who receives this on the BCC and CC lists, please read the
first page (about the BCC listings) and reply you answers back to me also if you would like to be on the list and be willing to
participate also!)
Tom,
Since it looks like we are
going to continue our communications with each other (which thrills me), I
would like to ask a favor of you, as I do with all those I share with.
I am currently in
communication (like I am with you) with many other persons via email - would
you possibly be interested in seeing some of what OTHERS are discussion with me
and the questions and answers they get? I could set you up on my BCC (Blind
Carbon Copy list) and when I respond to their emails you would get a copy for
your reading entertainment / possible benefit?
If one of my spiritual
discussion pals (like you) asks me, I can always 'NOT CC' certain emails (if
they are too personal or private) OR blurb out all personal references (names,
email addresses, etc.) as I do with one or two of my pals.
Most of my pals just let me
fully share all that they communicate with me (and on a rare occasion they send
an email and at the top say 'DON'T BCC THIS" because it has something in
it they want private to me only).
As you well know, I do most
of the talking in these sessions, and there is usually very little coming from
my pals that is 'too personal' to show others. Heck, most of them are in the
same boat as you, and often learn a lot from the 'other's' emails that I BCC
them on.
Also, if you don't mind, I
would like to begin including your emails into my BCC group (that is, when I
respond to you, I will BCC the group that is interested in these spiritual
discussions.)
Also, would you be interested
in the 'recent' archive for your reading pleasure? (There are probably 40 or 50
emails in the most recent BCC directory.) - Of course, you know me, some of my
responses to people go on for 20 pages...
I would be happy to compile a set of them up and send them to you (you can
always just skip or trash what does not interest you...) There is typically a
single file where I keep all of the chronological communications with one
particular individual (ignoring what I am just BCCing him on from others) so that
there is a continuing thread to the discussion. There are about 10 different
persons in the recent BCC group sharing.
I was just about ready to recompile them anyway, so, just say the word and I
will send a copy of them to you?
THREE QUESTIONS:
1.) DO I HAVE YOUR PERMISSION to both SEND YOU BCCs?
2.) And allow others to be BCCd on my responses to you?
3.) Would you like to be sent the ‘recent' archive of
everyone's discussions when I compile it?
Remember, I can always block
out anything you want blocked (personal) or remove all identity references.
By way of explanation: one of my goals (as a spiritual guide,
mystic guru, and pizza chef) has always been to spread the wealth of truth and
good information as widely as I can, soas to benefit the most people. You and I
have already shared some good stuff that would be helpful to others, and I
would like your permission to both start BCCing you on their stuff, AND, to BCC
them when I respond to you.
I am going to ask the same
thing of most of them in the next few days, and build up the BCC group list
some.
I will take what you wrote and comment on it. I will comment on
all of it (verbosely, what did you expect) in black
(and blue for emphasis) and your text will be in
red.
---------------------------------------------------
My dear Peniel G.G.G,
Wow! Your
responses are fantastic! It would never do for us to meet face to face because
our conversation would continue unabated for three days.
We already
discussed our face-to-face meeting possibilities.
..(snip)… Large section removed – previously
replied to…
I could have used
a scanner and OCR (optical character recognition) but chose the longer way for
better memory retention). Anyway, perhaps you could send something to convert
and I will give it a try.
We already discussed typing
in scanned pages.
The dessert.
I love
dessert!
You challenged me to the core with your first twelve proposals. Let us discuss
them both individually and collectively. But let me begin by saying this;
Who can understand
the triune (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) nature of God? Who can understand the
dual (man/God) nature of Jesus? Who really understands the dual (wave/particle)
nature of light? (Is it a wavicle? What is it when no one is looking? a wave, a
particle, both, neither?). We are walking on deep water here.
Be careful in what you deem ‘unknowable' or ‘unfathomable'? Consider what we know today, that merely 100 years ago was considered ‘beyond man's grasp' or ‘unknowable'.
I chose never to limit God in what He choose to reveal to me, or attempt to reveal to me, on in what way He can assist me (this is the THEME of my book, "The Box" which I would love to send you if you like, in PDF format.)
Granted, there have been ‘some' things regarding Him that were beyond my grasp at the time presented, but not many. The real first question to ask is: Is THIS thing knowable, comprehensible, and understandable by me? Then, will knowing perhaps assist me to: love Him more dearly, see Him more clearly, and or follow Him more nearly? Then, will He allow me to know it?
Shoot, if you come to the elephant as a blind man from this particular direction, it is amazing what He can show to us. He has often given me more than I could ‘easily' grasp at that particular time, but as my understanding and wisdom increased, I realized that it was precisely some of these ‘challenges' (as you put it) that caused my growth (albeit, sometimes painful growth.)
So, let us pray, Dear God, show us all that You will, and help us to understand.
Let us go to the
heart of the matter and consolidate. Disregard all of both of our previous
proposed statements for a moment, for I intended to tangle you up in a web of
semantics. Let me bring back some of your own comments and we will then drill
to the heart of this enigma: What is the Nature of God in reference to His
‘abilities' and ‘inabilities'? (Put another way, what is there that He can do but that most might not
understand or accept that He can; and, what
is there that He can't do – again that most might not accept or understand? THESE are examples of what I call
‘cliff-hangers' for as you stated, we get deep here. Some are fearful of
falling. It is indeed a long way down! But, God, THE VIEW from up here!!)
As you saw me
demonstrate, it is possible to drag someone's ‘opinions' (beliefs, decisions,
etc.) around in the mud with some proposed cliffhangers. When one approaches
the edge of the cliff, the danger is increased, but the view is so much wider
and clearer.
(Section
excerpted)
B.) But yet,
.......but yet here is a dilemma. I believe that Jesus was tempted in the
desert and also at many other times (get thee behind me Satan, let this cup
pass from me but not my will but thine be done, know you not that I can call
legions of angels, etc.). I believe that, since he was led into the desert By
the Holy Spirit, that it was a real temptation and not a sham.
It was not just
for show. So can we say that the appeal was to the physical (man) nature of
Jesus? Even so, the effect of yielding is the same, whether man or God (what is
the difference if I say to this man take up your bed or your sins are
forgiven). If he had yielded to the temptation we would yet be looking for a
Savior. He could then not have been the Sacrificial Lamb without spot or
blemish.
Can we say that the very real potential to sin was there yet he looked forward
to the high honor that could be his to sit at the right hand of God? Even so
for us, for this is not our home but we look forward to a home not constructed with
hands.
(Section
excerpted)
Indeed, herein
you have trod the very edge of the cliff. Since you voluntarily and willing
came here to this particular mountain, let us stay a while and examine this
mountain cliff in more detail. I suspect that if we get a clear view of what is
beyond this particular precipice, it will then show you many more mountains
below it that will now be clearer for you.
You said: I believe that, since he was led into the
desert By the Holy Spirit, that it was a real temptation and not a sham. This is indeed the crux of this
‘apparent' paradox.
First point: I
agree complete with you assessment of Jesus' situation. Think about it, if it
were ‘impossible' for Him to have sinned, then the temptation was a sham, a
show, and a fake. He was just play-acting, for He was ‘incapable' of sinning. I
also agree with your assessment of the results if He ‘had' sinned.
Next point: I
say this, Jesus WAS capable of sinning. He COULD have. It was POSSIBLE. He HAD
THE POWER. He did NOT FAKE this ‘tempting'. If there were no real danger (or
possibility) of Him ‘sinning' (offending God) then the agony, the trial in the
desert, the comforting by the angels – all a sham, a fake, a ruse, a LIE. I do
NOT accept this.
Next point:
although He COULD HAVE sinned, He CHOSE NOT TO! He had the power, and did NOT
exercise it. Because He could have and did not, this makes His temptation REAL,
valuable, worthy as a sacrifice.
Quick question: Are Jesus and The Father ONE?
Clarification,
expansion: Do They have the same Nature? Are They exactly alike? Does one of
Them have some powers or abilities or attributes or characteristics that the
other one lacks? Are they different in any way?
Next point: If
They are One (as I propose they are) in NATURE, then we can extrapolate thus:
whatever the Son is like, so the Father is like. (When you have seen Me, you
have seen the Father.)
From this
extrapolation, we then arrive here: Jesus could sin (otherwise the temptation
was a farce.) Jesus and God (the Father) are One. What Jesus can do, the Father
can do.
CONCLUSION: The
Father (God) CAN SIN.
Apologies: Of
course, like Jesus, He chose NOT to sin, ever. But, He has he power. Where do
you think the ‘power to sin' came from, did Satan (Lucifer) invent it? Is this
a power that Satan and we humans and the demons have that God lacks? Are there
things that we can do that God cannot?
Again, I admit
that in knowing this about the Nature of God, apparent paradoxes arise.
However, these are NOT insurmountable, nor incomprehensible to we mortals.
Paradox 2: God
can sin. But, how can God ‘offend himself'? (The root definition of what a sin
is, an offense to God.) He could NOT. For as you so amply demonstrated, it is
not in His NATURE.
Digression: OK,
how do we amend this equation? There is more than one definition of sin. Sin is
NOT ONLY ‘what offends God', although it is mostly and mainly that. Sin is
also: Something regarded as
being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong. This is exactly what it sounds like Jesus was tempted to
do, something shameful (bow down and worship me, and I will give you all of the
kingdoms of the world.) This final temptation would probably also qualify as
‘deplorable' and possibly ‘utterly wrong'. At least, utterly wrong considering
who it was that was ‘considering' it. Also, if Jesus never even ‘considered'
what He was tempted with, this also would have produced a sham. He was not slow
to decide, BUT, He MUST have ‘considered' Satan's proposition, and then, wisely
decided, 'No!"
Untangling: The
web is weaved, as usual, with SEMANTICS! Those whom do not use words properly
will get caught in their words. Unlike the Cheshire cat, we cannot make words
mean whatever we choose for them to mean, we must use them wisely, and as they
are intended.
Peniel says, 'If
a man cannot say what he means, he will not mean what he says." This leads
to a powerful requirement for a clear understanding of ‘key' words when dealing
with spiritual matters, especially! Hence, Peniel has a well-worn dictionary.
The dilemma is
the difference between 'CAN'T" and 'DOESN'T". Can't implies the lack
of power, capability, capacity, or ability. 'DOESN'T" implies (and must
needs infer) ability, but willful choice not to.
I 'CAN" hit
my wife over the head with a rubber chicken. I (wisely) chose not to. I chose
not to today, yesterday, tomorrow and forever.
I won't.
I 'CAN'T"
grow to 100 feet tall by my will. Even if I ‘choose' to, I am unable. I won't.
Many people swap
the words 'can't" and 'won't" as if they were as interchangeable as
their socks, but, there is always a correct choice. If one is capable, one
'can" and therefore 'won't". If one is incapable, one 'can't"
and any choice regarding 'won't" or 'will" is rendered moot, and in
truth, an incorrect statement of reality (what is).
I can't grow to
be 100 feet tall (CAN BE SAID AS) I won't grow to be 100 feet tall. This
appears correct, but, is a variation of the word ‘won't', here not implying
will or choice, but rather future negation (that won't happen.)
To be clear, one
must always specify the ability and choice if applicable, thus:
I could hit my
wife over the head with a rubber chicken, but I choose not to. I won't.
Jesus could sin,
but He chose not to. He won't.
God can sin, but
He chooses not to. He won't.
With semantics
unindicated, it is quite correct to say, 'God can not sin" as history has shown that He never did, and
logic dictates that due to His nature, He never will. This is the same
semantical variation as me saying, 'I won't grow to be 100 feet tall." It
may appear that by this statement I have implied that I have the ‘ability' to
do this, but not in actuality.
Yes, I know
there are many references to and containing the words 'God can not sin"
and semantically I agree, He never will, never did, and won't. When can and
will get interchanged semantically, paradoxes apparently ‘appear'.
You also stated:
Nothing is impossible to God
except that which is inconsistent with his nature and purpose. He will not
violate I AM.
In this
statement, you summarize for me all of the ‘can' and ‘can't' of God's nature.
He will not violate I AM, is exactly why He ‘cannot commit suicide', take a
vacation, etc.
…(big snip)… All
covered.
Response: Nothing
shall be impossible for God (so long as it is consistent with His nature and
purpose). He has established and IS all parameters. All things and beings are
compared to Him the only TRUE reference. He is the Standard. Man's point of
view is not God's point of view. Our understanding and reference is currently
limited. We do not think like God thinks. Our ways are not His ways.
Indeed, BUT,
man's point of view CAN come
closer than it currently is to God's point of view. Our understanding and reference are
currently limited, BUT, this
does not mean that we should not seek and strive for a higher truth, a deeper
understanding, and a broader perspective. We do not think like God thinks, BUT, we do think! By God, let us think some more! Let us
think of any way to expand our understanding of God. Let us ask Him to deepen
our awareness and assist in our growth in both spirit and knowledge. For
knowledge can lead to understanding, and understanding can lead to wisdom, and
wisdom can bring us closer to loving Him more dearly, following Him more
nearly, and seeing Him more clearly… and this indeed is a noble undertaking.
Wow! You inspire me. But do we disagree? If so, please elaborate.
You complete me. You draw from me much that I was taught, but too lazy to have written down. Please, CONTINUE!
I honestly think, semantics aside and disregarded, we believe very much the same. Please understand that sometimes, for our growth, it is necessary to endure a little pain. In order to see things from a new perspective it is sometimes useful to SPIN someone around in circles for a short while. I hope neither of us got too dizzy.
Yours in Jesus (our mutual Friend),
and Brother!
Tom
Perhaps Jesus will one day
reveal your ‘True name' as He has done for many others, like
myself.
Now, let me proceed to
propose more paradoxical issues for your consideration:
1.)
What is God's ‘job'?
2.)
What is God's relationship
with we human beings during our mortal life?
3.)
What does God want from us?
4.)
Who was this Jesus guy?
5.)
What kind of man was He?
6.)
How does He and His life
impact and / or effect our lives and us?
Also, if you are
really bored and want to delve deeper into the abyss:
Let us do a
little ‘study' on one bible aspect that I find intriguing carefully consider
this:
Genesis
2:15 And Jehovah Elohim took Man, and put him into the garden of Eden, to till
it and to guard it. And Jehovah Elohim commanded Man, saying, Of every tree of
the garden thou shalt freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and
evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest of it thou
shalt certainly die.
2:18 And Jehovah Elohim said, It is not good that Man should be alone; I will
make him a helpmate, his like. And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim had formed
every animal of the field and all fowl of the heavens, and brought [them] to
Man, to see what he would call them; and whatever Man called each living soul,
that was its name. And Man gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the
heavens, and to every beast of the field; but as for Adam, he found no
helpmate, his like.
2:21 And Jehovah Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall upon Man; and he slept. And
he took one of his ribs and closed up flesh in its stead. And Jehovah Elohim
built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man.
And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this
shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man. Therefore shall a
man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall
become one flesh.
2:25 And they were both naked, Man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Beautiful!
Questions:
1.)
Is this ‘true'?
2.)
Is this ‘historically
accurate'?
3.)
Did God give man a ‘job' in
the garden?
4.)
If God made man, and the
garden, and his current situation, why does God say that there is something
‘NOT GOOD' about this present situation?
5.)
What does God say He will do
to ‘remedy' the un-good situation?
6.)
Now God makes the animals
and brings them to Adam. What was God's motivation for making all of these
animals?
7.)
What does this passage mean:
'but as for Adam, he
found no helpmate, his like. '
8.)
Since the animals did not
remedy the un-good situation, what then did God do?
9.)
What would have happened if
Adam had said, 'Hey, a lizard! Now, that is my kind of helpmate! I will take
this lizard as my helpmate." Would Eve had been created in this situation?
10.)
Did God ‘originally' intend
to create Eve (sure, He foreknew, BUT, what does the story imply about His
original choice)?
11.)
Why is Adam willing to
accept Eve, but unwilling to accept the lizard?
12.)
If they were naked, why were
they not ‘ashamed'? (Why even put this verse in there, what does it tell us)?
OK, now you have
some more stuff to chew on, if you desire!
Peniel G.G.G.
Submitted: Fri, Apr
02, 2004 10:44 pm
Subject: Some references for Tom from Peniel regarding 'holiness'
BCC List: KC, DC, JG, Biyn, DM, AP, GT
Tom,
I just wanted to send you some good references I found for your edification and entertainment.
--Peniel G.G.G.
======================================================
Holy and holy:
The word holy has two meanings: (1) Intrinsically holy. Only God
is intrinsically holy. (2) A mundane object or person who is set aside for a
holy purpose. In this sense, Christians are holy (saints), as are material
objects that are dedicated to religious use.
The word 'holy' signifies being set apart for a religious or
divine use or purpose. (e.g. a holy building is used for religious purposes; a
holy man devotes his time to religious service and work).
(hoh-lee) Perfect; pure;
separate; given to God's service. Above all else, God is holy. Everything
associated with God is holy. Psalm 29:2 Isaiah 29:23 2
Belonging to or coming from God.
Special to God.
The next attribute
is God's holiness. Exod xv ii. 'Glorious in holiness.' Holiness is the most
sparkling jewel of his crown; it is the name by which God is known. Psa cxi 9.
'Holy and reverend is his name.' He is 'the holy One.' Job vi 10. Seraphims
cry, 'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts, the whole earth is full of his
glory.' Isa vi 3. His power makes him mighty, his holiness makes him glorious.
God's holiness consists in his perfect love of righteousness, and abhorrence of
evil, and cannot look on iniquity.' Hab I 13.
I. God is holy
intrinsically. He is holy in his nature; his very being is made up of
holiness, as light is of the essence of the sun. He is holy in his Word. The Word
bears a stamp of his holiness upon it, as the wax bears an impression of the
seal. 'Thy Word is very pure.' Psa cxix 140. It is compared to silver refined
seven times. Psa xii 6. Every line in the Word breathes sanctity, it encourages
nothing but holiness. God is holy in his operations. All he does is holy; he
cannot act but like himself; he can no more do an unrighteous action than the
sun can darken. 'The Lord is holy in all his works,' Psa cxlv 17.
II. God is holy
primarily. He is
the original and pattern of holiness. Holiness began with him who is the
Ancient of Days.
III. God is
holy efficiently. He
is the cause of all that is holiness in others. 'Every good and perfect gift
comes from above.' James i 17. He made the angels holy. He infused all holiness
into Christ's human nature. All the holiness we have is but a crystal stream
from this fountain. We borrow all our holiness from God. As the lights of the
sanctuary were lighted from the middle lamp, so all the holiness of others is a
lamp lighted from heaven. 'I am the Lord which sanctify you.' Lev xx 8. God is
not only a pattern of holiness, but he is a principle of holiness: his spring
feeds all our cisterns, he drops his holy oil of grace upon us.
IV. God is holy
transcendently. 'There
is none holy as the Lord.' I Sam ii 2. No angel in heaven can take the just
dimensions of God's holiness. The highest seraphim is too low of stature to
measure these pyramids; holiness in God is far above holiness in saints or
angels.
[1] It is above
holiness in saints. It is a pure holiness. The saints' holiness is like gold in
the ore, imperfect; their humility is stained with pride; he that has most
faith needs pray, 'Lord, help my unbelief:' but the holiness of God is pure,
like wine from the grape; it has not the least dash or tincture of impurity
mixed with it. It is a more unchangeable holiness. Though the saints cannot
lose the habit of holiness (for the seed of God remains), yet they may lose
some degrees of their holiness. 'Thou hast left thy first love.' Rev ii 4.
Grace cannot die, yet the flame of it may go out. Holiness in the saints is
subject to ebbing, but holiness in God is unchangeable; he never lost a drop of
his holiness; as he cannot have more holiness, because he is perfectly holy; so
he cannot have less holiness, because he is unchangeably holy.
[2] The holiness
of God is above the holiness of angels. Holiness in the angels is only a
quality, which may be lost, as we see in the fallen angels; but holiness in God
is his essence, he is all over holy, and he can as well lose his Godhead as his
holiness.
But is he not
privy to all the sins of men? flow can he behold their impurities, and not be
defiled?
God sees all the
sins of men, but is no more defiled with them than the sun is defiled with the
vapours that rise from the earth. God sees sin, not as a patron to approve it,
but as a judge to punish it.
Use one: Is God so infinitely holy? Then see
how unlike to God sin is. Sin is an unclean thing, it is hyperbolically evil.
Rom i 23. It is called an abomination. Deut vii 25. God has no mixture of evil
in him; sin has no mixture of good, it is the spirit and quintessence of evil;
it turns good into evil; it has deflowered the virgin soul, made it red with
guilt, and black with filth; it is called the accursed thing. Josh vii 11. No
wonder, therefore, that God hates sin, being so unlike to him, nay. so contrary
to him: it strikes at his holiness; it does all it can to spite God; if sin
could help it, God should be God no longer.
Use two: Is God the Holy One, and is holiness
his glory? How impious are they that are haters of holiness! As the vulture
hates perfumes, so they hate the sweet perfume of holiness in the saints; their
hearts rise against holiness; as a man's stomach at a dish he has an antipathy
against. There is not a greater sign of a person devoted to hell, than to hate
one for the thing wherein he is most like God. Others are despisers of
holiness. They despise the glory of the Godhead. 'Glorious in holiness.' The
despising holiness is seen in deriding it; and is it not sad that men should
deride that which should save them? Sure that patient will die who derides the
physic. Deriding the grace of the Spirit comes near to despising the Spirit of
grace. Scoffing Ishmael was cast out of Abraham's house. Gen xxi 9. Such as
scoff at holiness shall be cast out of heaven.
Use three: Is God so infinitely holy? Then let
us endeavour to imitate God in holiness. 'Be ye holy, for I am holy.' 1 Pet i
i6. There is a twofold holiness; a holiness of equality, and a holiness of
similitude. A holiness of equality no man or angel can reach to. Who can
be equally holy with God? Who can parallel him in sanctity? But there is a
holiness of similitude, and that we must aspire after, to have some analogy and
resemblance of God's holiness in us, to be as like him in holiness as we can.
Though a taper dots not give so much light as the sun, yet it resembles it. We
must imitate God in holiness.
If we must be
like God in holiness, wherein does our holiness consist?
In two things. In
our suitableness to God's nature, and in our subjection to his will.
Our holiness
consists in our suitableness to the nature of God. Hence the saints are said to
partake of the divine nature, which is not partaking of his essence, but his
image. 2 Pet i 4. Herein is the saints' holiness, when they are the lively
pictures of God. They bear the image of God's meekness, mercifulness,
heavenliness; they are of the same judgment with God, of he same disposition;
they love what he loves, and hate what he hates.
Our holiness
consists also in our subjection to the will of God. As God's nature is the
pattern of holiness, so his will is the rule of holiness. It is our holiness
when we do his will, Acts xiii 22; when we bear his will, Micah vii 9; when
what he inflicts wisely we suffer willingly. Our great care should be, to be
like God in holiness. Our holiness should be qualified as God's; as his is a
real holiness, ours should be. 'Righteousness and true holiness.' Eph iv 24. It
should not be the paint of holiness, but the life; it should not be like the
Egyptian temples. beautified without merely. but like Solomon's temple, gold
within, Psa xlv 13. 'The king's daughter is all glorious within.' That I may
press you to resemble God in holiness consider,
How illustrious
every holy person is. He is a fair glass in which some of the beams of
God's holiness shine forth. We read that Aaron put on his garments for glory
and beauty. Exod xxviii 2. when we wear the embroidered garment of holiness, it
is for glory and beauty. A good Christian is ruddy, being sprinkled with
Christ's blood; and white, being adorned with holiness. As the diamond to a
ring, so is holiness to the soul; that, as Chrysostom says, they that oppose it
cannot but admire it.
(2.) It is the
great design God carries on in the world, to make a people like himself in
holiness. What are all the showers of ordinances for, but to rain down
righteousness upon us, and make us holy? What are the promises for, but to
encourage holiness? What is the sending of the Spirit into the world for, but
to anoint us with the holy unction? I John ii 20. What are all afflictions for,
but to make us partakers of God's holiness? Heb xii 10. What are mercies for,
but loadstones to draw us to holiness? What is the end of Christ's dying, but
that his blood might wash away our unholiness? 'Who gave himself for us, to
purify unto himself a peculiar people.' Titus ii 14. So that if we are not
holy, we cross God's great design in the world.
(3.) Our holiness
draws God's heart to us. Holiness is God's image; and God cannot choose but
love his image where he sees it. A king loves to see his effigies upon a piece
of coin. 'Thou lovest righteousness. Psa xlv 7. And where does righteousness
grow, but in a holy heart? Isa lxii 4. 'Thou shalt be called Hephzibah, for
the Lord delighteth in thee.' It was her holiness that drew God's love to her.
'They shall call them the holy people.' Verse 12. God values not any by their
high birth, but their holiness.
(4.) Holiness is
the only thing that distinguishes us from the reprobate part of the world.
God's people have his seal upon them. 'The foundation of God standeth sure,
having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are his. And let all that name the
name of Christ depart from iniquity. '2 Tim ii 19. The people of God are sealed
with a double seal. Election, 'The Lord knows who are his:' and Sanctification,
'Let every one depart from iniquity.' As a nobleman is distinguished from
another by his silver star; as a virtuous woman is distinguished from a harlot
by her chastity; so holiness distinguishes between the two seeds. All that are
of God have Christ for their captain, and holiness is the white colour they
wear. Heb ii 10.
(5.) Holiness is
our honour. Holiness and honour are put together. I Thess iv 4. Dignity goes
along with sanctification. 'He hath washed us from our sins in his blood, and
hath made us kings unto God.' Rev i s. When we are washed and made holy, then
we are kings and priests to God. The saints are called vessels of honour; they
are called jewels, for the sparkling of their holiness, because filled with
wine of the Spirit. This makes them earthly angels.
(6.) Holiness
gives us boldness with God. 'Thou shalt put away iniquity far from thy
tabernacles, and shalt lift up thy face unto God.' Job xxii 23, 26. Lifting up
the face is an emblem of boldness. Nothing can make us so ashamed to go to God
as sin. A wicked man in prayer may lift up his hands, but he cannot lift up his
face. When Adam had lost his holiness, he lost his confidence; he hid
himself. But the holy person goes to God a child to its father; his conscience
does not upbraid him with allowing any sin, therefore he can go boldly to the
throne of grace, and have mercy to help in time of need. Heb iv i6.
(7.) Holiness
gives peace. Sin raises a storm in the conscience; ubi peccatum ibi procella
[where there is sin, there is tumult]. 'There is no peace to the wicked.'
Isa lvii 21. Righteousness and peace are put together. Holiness is the root
which bears this sweet fruit of peace; righteousness and peace kiss each other.
(8.) Holiness
leads to heaven. It is the King of heaven's highway. 'An highway shall be
there, and it shall he called the way of holiness.' Isa xxxv 8. At Rome there
were temples of virtue and honour, all were to go through the temple of virtue
to the temple of honour; so we must go through the temple of holiness to
the temple of heaven. Glory begins in virtue. 'Who hath called us to glory and
virtue.' 2 Pet I 3. Happiness is nothing else but the quintessence of holiness;
holiness is glory militant, and happiness holiness triumphant.
What shalt we
do to resemble God in holiness?
Have recourse to
Christ's blood by faith. This is the lavacrum animae [the washing of the
soul]. Legal purifications were types and emblems of it. 1 John i 7. The Word
is a glass to show us our spots, and Christ's blood is a fountain to wash them
away.
(2.) Pray for a
holy heart. 'Create in me a clean heart of God.' Psa li 10. Lay thy heart
before the Lord, and say, Lord my heart is full of leprosy; it defiles all it
touches; Lord, I am not fit to live with such a heart for I cannot honour thee;
nor die with such heart; for I cannot see thee. Oh create in me a clean heart;
send thy Spirit into me, to refine and purify me, that I may be a temple fit
for thee the holy God to inhabit.
(3.) Walk with
them that are holy. 'He that walketh with the wise shall be wise.' Prov xiii
20. Be among the spices and you will smell of them. Association begets
assimilation. Nothing has a greater power and energy to effect holiness than
the communion of the saints
Isaiah 6:3 And they were calling to one another:
"Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his
glory."
Joshua 24:19
Joshua said to the people,
"You are not able to serve the LORD. He is a holy God; he is a jealous
God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins."
Psalms 22:3
Yet you are enthroned as the
Holy One; you are the praise of Israel.
Psalms 99:5, 9
[5] Exalt the LORD our God and
worship at his footstool; he is holy. [9] Exalt the LORD our God and worship at
his holy mountain, for the LORD our God is holy.
Isaiah 5:16
But the LORD Almighty will be
exalted by his justice, and the holy God will show himself holy by his
righteousness.
John 17:11
I will remain in the world no
longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father,
protect them by the power of your name -- the name you gave me -- so that they
may be one as we are one.
1 Peter 1:15-16
[15] But just as he who called
you is holy, so be holy in all you do; [16] for it is written: "Be holy,
because I am holy."
God is called the Holy One of
Israel about thirty times in Isaiah, and is so called also in Jeremiah and
Ezekiel, and elsewhere.
In the New Testament, God the Son
is spoken of as the holy one.
1 John 2:20
But you have an anointing from
the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
The third person of the Trinity is
constantly spoken of as the Holy Spirit. Holiness is the essential moral nature
of God.
Isaiah 57:15
For this is what the high and
lofty One says -- he who lives forever, whose name is Holy:
"I live in a high and holy place, but also with him who is contrite and
lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of
the contrite."
With reference to the Holy Spirit,
the word Holy is both His name and a description of His character.
080.020.000 Torrey: p37, T:II
Topic 20: What
does Holy mean?
080.020.010 Torrey: p37, T:II,
P:2
POINT
10: Holy means free from all defilement, pure. "God is
holy" means "God is absolutely pure."
Leviticus 11:43-45
[43] Do not defile yourselves by
any of these creatures. Do not make yourselves unclean by means of them or be
made unclean by them. [44] I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be
holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that
moves about on the ground. [45] I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt
to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.
Deuteronomy 23:14 For the LORD your God moves about in your camp to protect
you and to deliver your enemies to you. Your camp must be holy, so that he will
not see among you anything indecent and turn away from you.
Note the context of this verse.
1 John 1:5
This is the message we have
heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at
all.
080.022.000